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	<title>Comments on: We Still Matter</title>
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	<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/</link>
	<description>You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.</description>
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		<title>By: Merus</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-215</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Merus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2006 05:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d disagree with your assertion that there&#039;s nothing wrong with hardcore gamers, but then I&#039;d also agree with the comment above that says the term&#039;s so misused it&#039;s meaningless.

So, I think there are two groups of players, with some overlap - there&#039;s a group that will want changes to a game that make it more complicated, and thus more interesting for them, at the expense of accessability; the other group will heap scorn on any game that doesn&#039;t follow the formula it&#039;s &quot;supposed&quot; to. I&#039;m thinking about Myst here, but I&#039;m also reminded of Penny Arcade&#039;s criticisms of Final Fantasy XII, which appeared to be entirely about how real-time battles aren&#039;t turn-based battles and they want turn-based battles, dammit.

The thing about Katamari Damacy wasn&#039;t that it was complex - as much complexity as there is in the game, it&#039;s accessable and intuitive (once the game suggests that you think of the left and right thumbsticks as left and right hands). There&#039;s plenty of other games that are just as complex but aren&#039;t nearly as accessable, and when there&#039;s too many of these games in the market, it collapses. (Like adventure games, which became really a waste of time towards the end.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d disagree with your assertion that there&#8217;s nothing wrong with hardcore gamers, but then I&#8217;d also agree with the comment above that says the term&#8217;s so misused it&#8217;s meaningless.</p>
<p>So, I think there are two groups of players, with some overlap &#8211; there&#8217;s a group that will want changes to a game that make it more complicated, and thus more interesting for them, at the expense of accessability; the other group will heap scorn on any game that doesn&#8217;t follow the formula it&#8217;s &#8220;supposed&#8221; to. I&#8217;m thinking about Myst here, but I&#8217;m also reminded of Penny Arcade&#8217;s criticisms of Final Fantasy XII, which appeared to be entirely about how real-time battles aren&#8217;t turn-based battles and they want turn-based battles, dammit.</p>
<p>The thing about Katamari Damacy wasn&#8217;t that it was complex &#8211; as much complexity as there is in the game, it&#8217;s accessable and intuitive (once the game suggests that you think of the left and right thumbsticks as left and right hands). There&#8217;s plenty of other games that are just as complex but aren&#8217;t nearly as accessable, and when there&#8217;s too many of these games in the market, it collapses. (Like adventure games, which became really a waste of time towards the end.)</p>
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		<title>By: Carnival of Gamers #14 at buttonmashing.com</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carnival of Gamers #14 at buttonmashing.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 22:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Finster at Top of Cool proclaims We Still Matter. That&#8217;s &#8220;we&#8221; as in us hardcore gamers. Some people get &#8220;us&#8221;. Some obviously don&#8217;t. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Finster at Top of Cool proclaims We Still Matter. That&#8217;s &#8220;we&#8221; as in us hardcore gamers. Some people get &#8220;us&#8221;. Some obviously don&#8217;t. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Finster</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Finster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree completely, and is part of the point I was trying to make. There is a whole marketing paradigm (har!) that strives to separate and marginalize one segment of video game buyers. I also like the analogy of the movie industry split. That is EXACTLY what we all want to avoid!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely, and is part of the point I was trying to make. There is a whole marketing paradigm (har!) that strives to separate and marginalize one segment of video game buyers. I also like the analogy of the movie industry split. That is EXACTLY what we all want to avoid!</p>
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		<title>By: Moleman</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moleman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m kinda wary of this hardcore/casual thing everyone seems to be going on about.  For one thing, nobody uses the damn terms for anything approaching a consistent meaning, even in the same sentence.

Really- each of these guys are using the term in a different usage.  &quot;Casual&quot; ends up meaning anything from a gamer who doesn&#039;t follow the development of games that interest them, to players with low skill, to folks with little time on their hands for sustained play sessions, to non-evangelist gamers.  It&#039;s a old term we made up to seperate ourselves from the folks playing &quot;Barbie Horse Adventures&quot; instead of respectable games back in the day, but now that video games are a nearly mature medium, we&#039;re killing ourselves by falling back on arbitrary distinctions.

There&#039;s no actual split market here (well, there is, but it&#039;s the result of almost uncountably many different groups being lumped into two camps- makes the focus group results easier to code, but it flattens out complexity in favor of a nice story you can tell your boss at the presentation).  We shouldn&#039;t pretend that this is some sort of unbridgeable gap- it&#039;s just normal market variation. Some folks are going to seek out more complicated, challenging fare, and others aren&#039;t.  Let&#039;s not turn into movies, with an arbitrary Arthouse/Blockbuster split.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m kinda wary of this hardcore/casual thing everyone seems to be going on about.  For one thing, nobody uses the damn terms for anything approaching a consistent meaning, even in the same sentence.</p>
<p>Really- each of these guys are using the term in a different usage.  &#8220;Casual&#8221; ends up meaning anything from a gamer who doesn&#8217;t follow the development of games that interest them, to players with low skill, to folks with little time on their hands for sustained play sessions, to non-evangelist gamers.  It&#8217;s a old term we made up to seperate ourselves from the folks playing &#8220;Barbie Horse Adventures&#8221; instead of respectable games back in the day, but now that video games are a nearly mature medium, we&#8217;re killing ourselves by falling back on arbitrary distinctions.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no actual split market here (well, there is, but it&#8217;s the result of almost uncountably many different groups being lumped into two camps- makes the focus group results easier to code, but it flattens out complexity in favor of a nice story you can tell your boss at the presentation).  We shouldn&#8217;t pretend that this is some sort of unbridgeable gap- it&#8217;s just normal market variation. Some folks are going to seek out more complicated, challenging fare, and others aren&#8217;t.  Let&#8217;s not turn into movies, with an arbitrary Arthouse/Blockbuster split.</p>
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		<title>By: Finster</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Finster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with your take on marketing. It is too often a bunch of people blabbering about &quot;holistically leveraging our paradigms&quot; and trying to &quot;defenestrate their current strategy&quot;. I would say there are probably only a few really good marketing departments out there.

I also kind of see your point that the hardcore market has been over-emphasized. Casual gamers play a lot more Bejeweled than hardcore gamers, I suspect. BUT, look at the popularity of some of the Xbox Arcade titles. Ostensibly, Xbox Live started out as a hardcore-only type of service. I believe that it became more popular with the casual gamers because of the buzz created by the hardcore market.

So, I&#039;m not sure that over-emphasizing the hardcore segment is necessarily a bad thing. (It probably IS a bad thing to ignore the casual market, however.) I think this because I&#039;m kind of an elitist, and I believe that if the &quot;hardcore&quot; segment of video gamers believes a certain game is &quot;Good&quot;, then casual gamers will naturally buy it and want to see what all of the buzz is about.

So, that&#039;s pretty much where I&#039;m coming from. Even though the hardcore segment is much smaller than the casual segment, if you ignore the hardcore segment, you end up losing money. But if The Powers That Be can maneuver the market so that hardcore gamers have less influence, then maybe Goldeneye: Rogue Agent would&#039;nt have been the sales disaster that it was.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your take on marketing. It is too often a bunch of people blabbering about &#8220;holistically leveraging our paradigms&#8221; and trying to &#8220;defenestrate their current strategy&#8221;. I would say there are probably only a few really good marketing departments out there.</p>
<p>I also kind of see your point that the hardcore market has been over-emphasized. Casual gamers play a lot more Bejeweled than hardcore gamers, I suspect. BUT, look at the popularity of some of the Xbox Arcade titles. Ostensibly, Xbox Live started out as a hardcore-only type of service. I believe that it became more popular with the casual gamers because of the buzz created by the hardcore market.</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m not sure that over-emphasizing the hardcore segment is necessarily a bad thing. (It probably IS a bad thing to ignore the casual market, however.) I think this because I&#8217;m kind of an elitist, and I believe that if the &#8220;hardcore&#8221; segment of video gamers believes a certain game is &#8220;Good&#8221;, then casual gamers will naturally buy it and want to see what all of the buzz is about.</p>
<p>So, that&#8217;s pretty much where I&#8217;m coming from. Even though the hardcore segment is much smaller than the casual segment, if you ignore the hardcore segment, you end up losing money. But if The Powers That Be can maneuver the market so that hardcore gamers have less influence, then maybe Goldeneye: Rogue Agent would&#8217;nt have been the sales disaster that it was.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason "Botswana" Cox</title>
		<link>http://topofcool.com/blog/2006/04/17/what-ive-always-suspected/comment-page-1/#comment-216</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason "Botswana" Cox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofcool.com/?p=158#comment-216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the hardcore gaming market was over-emphasized and it was discovered that selling to them alone doesn&#039;t make a profit. Or maybe it was because games made for that market turned out to not be very good anyway.

Unfortunately, tossing that segment of the market aside is a mistake. It&#039;s true that many of them will complain about anything, but there is still value. Which complaints seem universal, which ones cross demographics, are real problems being identified?

Funny, I always had this idea that marketing was supposed to be about looking at data, finding patterns, and making selling decisions based on those patterns. More and more it seems like marketing decisions are made sort of seat-of-the-pants. The problem with ignoring the hardcore gaming market is that you make the assumption they will buy your game no matter what. Pretty bad assumption.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the hardcore gaming market was over-emphasized and it was discovered that selling to them alone doesn&#8217;t make a profit. Or maybe it was because games made for that market turned out to not be very good anyway.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, tossing that segment of the market aside is a mistake. It&#8217;s true that many of them will complain about anything, but there is still value. Which complaints seem universal, which ones cross demographics, are real problems being identified?</p>
<p>Funny, I always had this idea that marketing was supposed to be about looking at data, finding patterns, and making selling decisions based on those patterns. More and more it seems like marketing decisions are made sort of seat-of-the-pants. The problem with ignoring the hardcore gaming market is that you make the assumption they will buy your game no matter what. Pretty bad assumption.</p>
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